Death by deception

For info on this go to www.haleyham.com

#7.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:27 PM EST

haleyham.com

#7.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:34 PM EST

Reply to Regina go to www.haleyham.com

#7.3 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:50 PM EST

#7.4 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:50 PM EST

Can someone tell me what the definition of reasonable doubt is? All the jurors they interviewed, and even her mother admitted that it was possible that she committed suicide. And, yet they still convicted him of murder. The fact that they all admitted that it was possible that she committed suicide is by definition reasonable doubt. I'm not saying that she committed suicide or he killed her. Based on what I saw I don't think there was enough evidence to decide either way. So much for the "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" mentality.

#8 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:12 PM EST

Bare in mind that we only saw clips from the trial----so when Julie's mother said suicide might be a possibility her statement on the show was cut off right there. Dateline wanted you to believe only what they told you about. The Jurors got to hear the entire statement that Julie's mother made. Therefore they were able to draw their conclusion from ALL the facts and not just what Dateline "clipped". This show was slanted in the direction that the producer wanted the viewer to believe. We did not get all the facts, not by a long shot, unless we were in the courtroom ourselves each and every day.

#8.1 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:35 PM EST

I did bare that in mind. I know we did not get all the facts. Notice I said I was basing my opinion on the fact that two of the jurors said in the interview that they thought it was possible she committed suicide. And, they did see the trial in it's entirety. To me that sounds like reasonable doubt. I do know there could have been more damning evidence against that wasn't presented on Dateline. But, again based on what I saw I don't think they had enough evidence to determine if it was murder or suicide. And, if you can't do that how can you convict someone of the worst crime in the land?

#8.2 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:14 AM EST

The jurors that were interviewed aid they considered the suicide possiblity, and indeed they needed to figure all possiblities before convicting. They did not say they still considered it possible at the time they voted for conviction! I think they had more than enough evidence or they wouldn't have voted for conviction.

#8.3 - Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:51 AM EST

Robbin-358688

what would have nailed it for me as a juror would have been the findings on the computer. On his computer were ways to poison and on hers were ways to survive. I don't buy that she would be using his computer to look up poisons. Why wouldn't she have just used her own? and why would she poison herself slowly to commit suicide. Common sense says that makes absolutely no sense

#8.4 - Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:58 PM EST

Jet-817301

I think the question, "did she commit suicide?" automatically goes through your head when you find out someone has died of a poison. Julie's parents and friends were in shock. It was probably more like, "no way! She didn't commit suicide, did she??" Just a normal response. Definately not something for the jurors to examine as reasonable doubt.

#8.5 - Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:18 PM EST

Head-Negro

good story the only problem I have is

thinking he maybe innocent, I think she commited suicide

I just have a problem with the search of posion on his computer two weeks before she dies

#9 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:25 PM EST

I think he is absolutely not innocent. James lied about so much to so many, he stole from his employer. His computer searchs speak volumes--they have to do with death. Julie's computer searches had to do with creating life! Don't you find it odd that James did not take the stand in his own defense? Liars rarely tell the same story exactly the same twice.

1 vote

#9.1 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:46 PM EST

Cindi Bonifer

My brother Steve Bonifer was murdered the same way and by his wife of 30 years, not even 10 months ago. This is still an ongoing case and I pray this show tonight helps the prosecuting attorney. It has certainly given us hope as a family that we stand a chance of putting his wife away for good. I pray that Julie Keown's parents find peace, and so glad they are fighting for laws to make antifreeze taste bitter. Our loved ones are in a better place now, but their spouses who took their lives do not deserve one ounce of peace or happiness.

1 vote

#10 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:28 PM EST

PI-807062

I am currently working a case with similarities. It involves an elderly man who may have been poisoned with ethylene glycol by his care taker who is also a senior citizen. What I have read about this type of poisoning is that ethylene glycol can cause depression. What is also unfortunate is that I believe that this type of poisoning is going on more than anyone realizes. Usually by the time it's detected it too late.

#11 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:32 PM EST

Antifreeze bittering Law haleyham.com in Tennessee need in every State

#12 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:41 PM EST

Hot-in-Miami

Why isn't this law passed nationwide rather than state by state? I'd like all manufacturers in every state where antifreeze is sold to be required to add a bittering agent.

#12.1 - Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:12 PM EST

CommonSense-807032

so she committed suicide? why would she chose slow painful that lasted for so long, put herself through that kind of pain rather than a much quicker, painless way? Maybe she thought it would be quick? No, If SHE was the one who did the research on his computer then she would have known that wasn't the case and chosen a way to make it quick. On the flip side, he's the only one with the motivation to use a slow method like that... possibly trying to cover it up and avoid being convicted..

Ethylene glycol and all forms of it are used in so many products we put in and on our bodies.. go to your bathroom.. look at the ingredients on the bottle.. look at the labels on the candy you give your kids.. look at your shampoo.. do some research. There are so many toxic substances like this in most products out there. Ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are clear liquids used in antifreeze, deicing solutions and automotive antifreeze. Go to and read the ingredients list. Look at the very last sentence then go to this link and read:

As a products
In to make the produced vapor better resemble cigarette smoke
As a medical and sexual ")
As an
As a
As a E1520
As a cooling agent for glycol jacketed fermentation tanks
As a carrier in
As a less-
As a used in mixing photographic chemicals, such as film developers
In productions
In hand sanitizers,
In
As a working fluid in hydraulic presses
As a in liquid cooling systems
To regulate humidity in a cigar
As the killing and preserving agent in pitfall traps, usually used to capture
To treat livestock
As the main ingredient in sticks.
To aircraft

There is one website that says.. 'Because of its low chronic oral toxicity, propylene glycol is (GRAS) for use as a direct food additive.' Wait.. how did this woman die again?

#13 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:52 PM EST

Good question, why would she pick this painful form of suicide? After all, she was a nurse and if she had wanted to committ suicide she could have found a much quicker, less painful method!

#13.1 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:52 PM EST

Milu

Two things:

1. The most damning evidence against the husband is that it took him 10 hours to get his wife to the Emergency room.

2. Who would commit suicide by anti-freeze? NO one.

#14 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:38 AM EST

Hot-in-Miami

I agree and was about to post on the forum to let people know that this is pretty much the damning evidence against him, as it seems some people here may have overlooked it and have their doubts as to his guilt. It's not just the fact that his computer had research tied to death and hers had researched tied to life and the fact that this is a slow, painful way to go that no one would want to use for suicide purposes, but it took him 10 hours to take her to the emergency room. Why in the world would you wait so long to take someone to an emergency room? The only explanation for this is he wanted to make sure she'd die (he probably researched the amount of time he should wait before taking her in for the antidote not to work). Someone who is innocent has nothing to fear and legitimately wants to help save someone who looks gravely ill, no matter what; and that person would most certainly never wait 10 hours to do something about it! Sounds like his stupidity was his own downfall. I'm glad he was stupid though and is now facing jail time; had he been smart, he may have gotten away with the perfect murder.

#14.1 - Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:20 PM EST

Jay7777

Her mother did admit that suicide was a possibility...BUT..when the searces on teh computers were looked at...on hers, it was all about finding and looking at causes of kidkeny problems..of extensively looking at what it could be. That is not what one would be doing if one was committing suicide..and this suicide was something that was happening over time as opposed to just one ingestion. That to me is one of teeh biggest problems with the suicide possibility...THAT doesn't make any sense. Also, Keown's comments about possibly finding a bottle of Gatorade that just happened to be laced with antifreeze..how preposterous is that? Again..the posioning is one that took place over months and just suggesting she found that at a neighbors is pretty silly..what did she wander off and find that every day?? More of the lies of him. I really wonder if this does not happen more often..and certainly laws need to be changed so that there is some bitter agent in antifreeze so this can not happen.

#15 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:06 AM EST

It doesn't make any sense to you. But, you are not in her state of mind are you?

Also, comments about "POSSIBLY" finding a bottle of Gatorade. If they had found a bottle of Gatorade that had been laced I would agree with you. But, someone might have found a bottle of Gatorade that might have been laced. Is that really enough to convict someone of murder? Do you know how often eyewitness accounts are completely and totally wrong? You know there are a lot of people out there who have "POSSIBLY" seen UFO's. So, I guess UFO's are real right?

#15.1 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:20 PM EST

Arty-808027

: Can someone tell me what the definition of reasonable doubt is?...

Steve, the wife's mother and maybe some of the jurors thought it was possible given her state of mind that she may have contemplated suicide. But that is much different than thinking her actual death was a result of suicide. The bottom line is they looked at the facts of the case and determined it was muder. Does someone who wants to kill themselves search for ways to do it on their husband's computer while simultaneously searching for ways to live on their own? Do they choose such a slow excruciatingly painful method? Not to metion plenty of other things pointing to the husband. I fear jurors like you because you don't understand reasonable doubt. If you think there was reasonable doubt in this case, by your standards 99% of criminals would be acquitted.

#16 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:56 AM EST

Sorry, but if I was on your jury I would be your best friend. If you think that there is a reasonable possibility that she committed suicide. Then in the absence of hard evidence to the contrary that is reasonable doubt? People suffering from depression don't always make rational decision. And, a doctor testified that the medication she was taking are mind altering to boot. So how can you say with certainty what method of suicide she would or would not choose if she where going to commit suicide?

It's jurors like you that have put the United States in the wonderful position of having 25% of the worlds prison population with only 5% of the total population. Just do me a favor, research how many people on death row have been exonerated in the past 5 years. And remember on a case like this you are putting someone in a cage for the rest of their lives based on a hunch. How would you feel if that where you in the cage?

#16.1 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:03 PM EST

aardvark-808156

Does anyone know the name of the piano song that played throughout this episode? I recognize it from a movie soundtrack but can't for the life of me remember which one.

#17 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:24 AM EST

Anyone interested in advice in getting legislation passed in this State to require sweet antifreeze contain the most bitterest substance known to man please go to

www.haleyham.com

#18 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:21 PM EST

Lulu151

Wasn't she a nurse? Wouldn't she have found a quick and painless way to commit suicide, if that was her intention?

Also, does anyone know the name of the judge?

#19 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:22 PM EST

When someone puts this in a drink and you do not know about it, do you start throwing up, etc ? If you get ill, usually on a week-end or during a vacation when the people at work would not know that you were having bouts of throwing up on week-ends, could this be happening? Could you be poisoned occasionally to make your kidneys shrink in a long term situation of having been poisoned? What can you do? If you get extremely ill would a doctor know if you had the flu or if you were poisoned? Or do they just give you shot to keep you from throwing up and send you home again? Because he moved her away from all of her family and friends and went to Boston so she had no contact with them, could she have been getting sick and they just didn't know....

#20 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:49 PM EST

Dr. Jack Edelman, Ph.D,

There is a very rare inherited disease in which the body produces its own antifreeze--and it reaches toxic/fatal levels eventually. I suggest that the victims parents undergo a genetic test to see if they carry that rare gene. If they both possess the gene, the victim probably died of natural causes--she might have gotten a 'double dose' of that mutant gene!

#21 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:36 PM EST

Do you throw-up and feel sick when you take anti-freeze in small amounts? If you are given anti-freeze on week-ends and when on vacations and you have flu like symptons would one know they are being poisoned? You aren't missed at work - you have no sick days as you've been sick on week-ends all of the time - If you went to the doctor when you were so sick would he tell you that you have the flu and just give you a shot to stop you from heaving any more and send you home - or would he test for this poisoning in your system? As you went for months/years being sick occasionally on week-ends when you had no plans with outher people would your kidney begin to shrink from the abouse? Would you not know you had this shrinkage until it got bad? This man isoated her from her family and friends by moving to Boston so that she probably didn't have the day to day discussions she did when she lived in the same area as they did...

#22 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:20 PM EST

I've never done this before - testing only -

#23 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:38 PM EST

If you are poisoned by anti-freeze do you throw-up and have flu-like symptoms? How would you know you have been poinsed on and off for the last few years shrinking your kidneys in the process every time a person had a chance to put something into your drink? It's so easy for someone to put something into your drink and you have no idea it's happened. What if she got sick on week-end and vacations when no one she worked with would know - her sick days at work hadn't been touched that much... Why did he take her away to Boston - away from her family and friends...so she'd be isolated there?

#24 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:48 PM EST

Jay7777

SteveC...I think logic is something you have missed entirely in what I said. But that is OK. It makes NO sense to me at all and to MANY people....This woman was looking into why there were kidney problems..about medications trying to find answers..to tru and SOLVE a medical problem.. THAT Steve is NOT something someone who is trying to kill themselves would be doing. Again..you miss the fact that this "poisoning" is not just one simple inhestion...but done over a long period of time. If it was a suicide..why would she be looking and seaching for answers about her condition?? If she were posioning herself she would KNOW that, wouldn't she?? Sorry THAT makes absolutely no sense at all. If she was trying to commit suicide there would have been no searches for possible side effects of medication, for trying to find out what was wrong with herself, nothing at all like that. So if she were posioning herself...all the searches and e-mails related to her trying to find out what was wtong with herself make ZERO sense...in other words VERY much not possible at all...which I believe was why the jury threw out ANY thought of her committing suicide. As to Keown's talking about her wife and POSSIBLY finding and drinking a tainted Gatorade with antifreeze bottle...THAt is simpley ridiculoius. A person drinking from ONE bottle ONE time is would NOT cause the poisoning...it has to be done over a period of time with ingestion happening ay many points. Aall that was Mt Keown trying to give false theories to get the attention away from him. By the way, I doubt it was anything close to a hunch that this jury convicted Mt Keown..the peoblem is with the computer evidence and trying to make sense out if it all. Who looked uyp the poisons? Why? If it was her, then why all the e-mails and searchs trying to find out what is wrong? There was testimony that her husband had told her on many occasions to drink the Gatorade. I think that is quite obvious. There are many that are convicted on skimpy evidence..but this is hardly one of those cases. Was it an accident? No..because the poisoning was over time, that would not at all be possible and also the compyter evidence of looking up about poisons. Suicide? Again...one who would commit suicide over time like that would not at the same time be trying to find out what was wrong with herself, look up information on kidney disease etc etc. So..that leaves only the possibility of murder. Lulu..The judge was Sandra Hamlin. To Dr Edelman..if you believe that that ight have been the case, I hope you would contact Keown's defense attorneys.

#25 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:32 PM EST